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Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby hanyu » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:19 pm

Dear forum members,
Regarding welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1, I think that the clause 8.4.2 includes two contradictory statements. The first statement is the first paragraph of that clause that specifies: "welding of a test in any one position (pipe or plate) qualifies for welding in all positions (pipe or plate) except for PG and J-L045 where a separate welding procedure test shall be required" and the second statement is the fourth paragraph of the same clause that specifies: "when neither impact nor hardness requirements are specified, welding in any one position (pipe or plate) qualifies for welding in all positions (pipe or plate)". So, in case that neither impact nor hardness requirements are specified, shall I follow the first or the fourth paragraph of the clause 8.4.2? Could you please give me your interpretation?
Thanks
hanyu
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby mohd » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:47 pm

Hi hanyu,

1. Apply paragraph 4 when no impact/hardness specified and if specified then follow test specimen location for impact and hardness (also please consider paragraph 5).

2. Regarding paragraph 1 only remind us that changing direction need separate PQR (H-L045 upward / J-L045 downward).

it is really confusing but this is a general practice.

regards,
Mohd.
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby hanyu » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:05 pm

Hi Mohd,
It still remains confusing to me since if understand well the code requires a separate qualification only for the PG (vertical down position) and J-L045 (downwards position on pipe with angle of the axis of the pipe 45º). So according to EN 15614-1, I think that the position H-L045 (upwards position on pipe with angle of the axis of the pipe 45º) doesn't need a separate qualification. Could you please clarify?
thanks
hanyu
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby mohd » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:50 am

hanyu,

Ans: yes,
refer paragraph 5 of clause 8.4.2.
Code only says when you change the welding direction requalification is needed. This is a distinction between ASME IX and EN 15614-1.

regards
mohd
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby hanyu » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:13 pm

Mohd,
Many thanks for your time, though I regret to tell you that it still remains confusing to me since I have went through paragraph 5 of clause 8.4.2 where there is no reference to "changing welding direction". That paragraph refers to the test pieces for hardness and impact tests as well as to the required NDTs: "To satisfy both hardness and impact requirements two test pieces in different welding positions are required unless a single position qualification is required. Where qualification is required for all positions both test pieces shall be subjected to full visual examination and non-destructive testing". Please note that I use the 2004 edition of EN 15614-1 that I think is the last edition. Could you please check your edition of that code and kindly let me know if there is a newer one that I have no in my hand?
Thanks
hanyu
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby mohd » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:20 pm

hanyu,

Thanks. Learning is an endless process. I everyday open the code and it always seems to be the first time.

Let me make myself simple through two examples:

1) If you have qualified 6" pipe on H-L045 position (6G upward as per ASME IX), then you qualify for all positions except for J-L045 (as per 8.4.2 paragraph 1).

2) If you have qualified plate on PF (3G upward as per ASME IX), then you qualify for all positions except for PG (as per 8.4.2 paragraph 1).

EN 15614-1 is concerned about the direction of welding since heat input is involved and the heat inputs between upward welding and downward welding are significantly different.

regards,
mohd
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby wefel » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Mohd,
Please let me think that mixing welding codes (EN 15614-1 and ASME IX) is not a good practice since each one of them is based on its philosophy and lots of times they are not in line with one another. For example, even though EN 15614-1 specifies that PG (downhill progression) and J-L045 (downhill progression) always need a separate procedure qualification, ASME IX doesn't specify such a requirement.
Regarding your statements:
If you have qualified 6" pipe on H-L045 position (6G upward as per ASME IX), then you qualify for all positions except for J-L045 (as per 8.4.2 paragraph 1)
I would like to add that according to 8.4.2 paragraph 1 in that case you don't qualify not only for J-L045 but also for PG.
If you have qualified plate on PF (3G upward as per ASME IX), then you qualify for all positions except for PG (as per 8.4.2 paragraph 1)
I would like to add that according to 8.4.2 paragraph 1 in that case you don't qualify not only for PG but also for J-L045.
EN 15614-1 is concerned about the direction of welding since heat input is involved and the heat inputs between upward welding and downward welding are significantly different.
The code specifies separate qualification for PG and J-L045 even though they result in lower heat input with respect to PF, PH and H-L045 since the downhill progression gives lower heat input than the uphill progression gives (uphill progression gives the higher heat input with respect to all positions). So, the reason that PG and J-L045 shall be separately qualified is not the heat input. The factor of heat input is addressed on the second paragraph of clause 8.4.2.

Hanyu,
Please note that there is no contradiction between the first and the fourth paragraphs of clause 8.4.2. The first paragraph clarifies that the PG and J-L045 always need a separate procedure qualification (either there are impact and/or hardness requirements or not). Then, the second paragraph gives instructions from where to take impact and/or hardness tests so as to qualify for all positions (except PG and J-L045 that, as we have told, always need a separate procedure qualification). Then in the fourth paragraph (to my opinion this paragraph could be omitted) the code would like to highlight that without impact and hardness requirements, welding in any one position qualifies for welding in all positions (except PG and J-L045 that, as we have told, always need a separate procedure qualification).
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby mohd » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:44 pm

dear,

Nice discussion.

Moreover, if heat input is not a cause for separate qualification for PG & J-L045 then what else could be? The factors that code is concerned are:
1. welder skill
2. electrode suitability
3. welding parameters
4. mechanical properties

regards
mohd
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby wefel » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:23 pm

Mohd,
Frankly I don't know what's the reason the European Technical Committee that has prepared the EN 15614-1 has specified a separate procedure qualification for PG and J-L045. But it is clear that it has not specified for heat input purpose as I have explained before.
Regarding your comments for the factors that the code involves, please let me disagree with the first one (welder skill) since the EN 15614-1 is applicable only to procedure qualification (not welder qualification). For welder qualification the relevant EN standard for fusion welding steels is the EN 287-1.
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby mohd » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:11 am

dear Mr Wefel,

According to your posts and to EN 15614-1, clause 8.4.2,

please correct me if am wrong,

1. PQR performed without impact and hardness qualifies for all positions except J-L045 & PG.

2. PQR performed with impact and hardness qualifies for all positions (except J-L045 & PG) provided that we take test pieces from PF (impact) and PC (hardness) for plate welding and from overhead position (hardness) for pipe welding.

regards,
mohd
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby wefel » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:12 am

Dear Mohd,

I agree with your first statement but please let me disagree with the second statement since these are examples given by the code and not the rule. The rule says that "when impact and/or hardness requirements are specified impact tests shall be taken from the weld in the highest heat input position and hardness tests shall be taken from the weld in the lowest heat input position in order to qualify for all positions". In other words if impact test is required, then the PQR qualifies for positions with heat input equal to or lower than the PQR's heat input and if hardness test is required, then the PQR qualifies for positions with heat input equal to or higher than the PQR's heat input. Moreover, in case that a test coupon has different heat inputs in different locations (please have a look at Figure 6 of EN 15614-1) then all intermediate (regarding to heat input) positions are qualified provided that the above rule applies (eg: Figure 6, impact test specimens shall be taken from location 3 and hardness test specimen from location 5).

regards
wefel
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby Ballbearing » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:40 am

Guys,
This is out of BS/EN 288-3 (for those not conversant with BS/EN codes it was superceded by EN 15614-1).

8.4.2 Welding positions
When neither impact nor hardness requirements are
specified, welding in any one position (pipe or plate)
approves for welding in all positions (pipe or plate).
When either impact and/or hardness requirements are
specified impact tests shall be taken from the weld
made in the highest heat input position and hardness
tests shall be taken from the weld made in the lowest
heat input position in order to approve for all
positions.
To satisfy both hardness and impact requirements two
test pieces in different welding positions shall be
required unless a single position approval is required.
Where approval is required for all positions both test
pieces shall be subjected to full visual examination and
non-destructive testing given in table 1.

Basically in line with ASME IX.
Doesn't have the 4th paragraph wefel mentioned and doesn't have reference to vertical down.
If 288-3 was considered perfectly acceptable for years why did the EN 15614-1 code committee decide they knew better ?
We should be globally trying to bring welding codes into line with each other to make it easier for everyone - not going off on a tangent and making up new rules,
Cheers,
BB
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby mohd » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:06 pm

dear Mr wefel & BB,

If I want to qualify pipe ASTM A 106 Gr B 6" Sch160 with processes: GTAW + SMAW (ER70S-2 + E7018) with impact and hardness requirements, please tell me how many test pieces do I need to prepare?

regards,
mohd
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby Ballbearing » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:36 am

mohd,
1 x pipe coupon (see Figure 6).
Hardness specimens taken from Area 5 (overhead) and impact specimens taken from Area 3 (vertical),
Cheers,
BB
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Re: Welding position qualification as per EN 15614-1

Postby Logosweld » Tue May 13, 2014 4:20 pm

all are nice posts appreciated..
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